Comments on Pensieve: Harry Potter as Jesus Christ

Wow Chai, you should be given an award for longest...

2008-01-28T09:45:28.731-06:00

Wow Chai, you should be given an award for longest comment on Pensieve! LOL. Anyway, I'm afraid I'd have to give a pretty long answer to address everything you said.

Instead let me just say that there are manuscripts of the New Testament dating to 100 years or less after the originals, and they are very accurate. Most modern historians do not question the historicity of Jesus (even if they dismiss the resurrection).

Boys, Boys - interesting notes I must admit.Bryan,...

2008-01-27T19:37:12.270-06:00

Boys, Boys - interesting notes I must admit.
Bryan, bruv

QUOTE:
Harry Potter is a work of fiction, no more... no less.

Sorry to put a damper on your pamper, but so is the Jesus myth. But does it really matter? NO! What really matters is what we can learn from the teachings. Which unfortunately haven't been translated very well and were subject to misinterpretation BEFORE they were written down.
The problem with some Christians (specially in the USA, damn scary place) is that they obsess over the last 3 hours of Jesus' life (if indeed he existed at all, I'd rather believe that he did as he's such an inspiration) and repeat it over and over how he died for us, instead of just acting on his teachings. Bloody pisses me off, actually but it's their problem I guess. I digress.

Jesus Christ as Harry Potter?
hmm. More, and in fact less than you'd think.
More like Jesus Christ as Mythras, Odin and Krishna
all who may have inherited their parables from earlier still
and Harry Potter just happening to be a pretty clever adaption of human psychic archetypes
combined with some 'en vogue' or perhaps 'zeitgeist' concepts of might and magic.

Sure, Harry Potter's definitely a work of fiction but it works with the same archetypes as the Jesus myth. The Jesus myth because it is older is more symbolic and has been engineered / evolved really well, it is very powerful and adheres very strongly to the symbolic archetypes which are hard-wired into our DNA on a sub-conscious level. It is clearly the same story as many of the spiritual parables of almost ALL nations [for a few popularly known ones read Osiris [egypt], Odin [Northern Europe], Mythras [pagan], krishna [India], Amaterasu [Japan] these and countless other myths - some older that writing itself - from Mesapotamia, Greece, etc. all tell of a figure who variously was of immaculate (or somehow special) birth (or early life), in some way was elevated from 'rags to riches' or elevated from a normal plane of existence to a supernatural one (often with the presenting of gifts at birth or when coming of age) [the presentation of "gold, frankincense and mhyrr" to baby Krishna 600 years before Christ's birth for example] - [the presentation of Harry's inheritence from Gringott's]
The individual experienced a descent into the underworld often [Jesus visited purgatory during his 3 days before resurrection I believe - notice the way everything moves in threes in stories] [Odin decends to the underworld during his initiatiary shamanic journey] Amaterasu the goddess of the sun disappears into a cave where her brother has to coax her out to give light to the world] [Harry Potter Descends more than once into a crypt-like environment (chamber, Ministry catacombs etc)] AND not to mention the resurrection (there are countless literal and symbolic versions of this in all kinds of powerful religious myths, most notably Osiris where the origin of the resurrection of Jesus is attributed.) - Harry Potter goes through a 'symbolic death' where he is in fact also suspended in the air near the end of the story.

This is the REAL reason for the popularity of Harry Potter: It is actually a quite well balanced story in an age (particularly, say, the past 200 years) when storytelling has become more and more based on ego gratification and less centered on the balance of elements relating to development and wholeness of the human psyche. It is not actually particularly well written but it's definitely creative and the characters are likable. Of course Harry didn't die in the end because ... well it's obvious it's not the way to end such a popular story. In addition as an explaination the hero must, after his symbolic death representing his coming of age into adulthood, brining a balance of the masculine strength and wisdom, and the feminine life-giving and protective elements of his psyche, be united with his anima and inherit his 'kingdom' where he may safely assure the continuation of life.

The Jesus myth in comparison is fairly unique in fact. The description of the last stages of his life subscribe almost perfectly to the story archetype of tragedy - thought to originate with the Greeks. The thing is Jesus as the protagonist is a whole and complete person, beyond mortal positivity and goodness in fact. It is very rare in any story for such a person to meet such an end. In fact symbolically in terms of Jungian psychology the end of Jesus' life represents a life cycle of a human who is imprisoned by the ego. People live and die like this all around us. We may in fact be one of them. Can we say to ourselves that we are living ego-less, that we are consistently centered, well balanced and work through our desires and ego gratification? This is the meaning of Jesus' famous statement in his sermon on the mount; "Blessed are the meek" said he. But who are the meek? The ego-less, that's who. If you re-read the original greek text the word used for 'meek', 'anaw' better translates as 'mild' or humble'. read: "without ego". If you re-read the scriptures based upon Jesus' teachings without the dogma which was added later and which all but shrouds any of the teachings upon which Christianity could be based, you will find some insights indeed. [Gospel of St Thomas, Dead sea scrolls etc.] Neither are they unique to Jesus' teachings. There are many great teachers born on this earth and jesus indeed learned from them also. Anyway, I'm getting beyond my means. I am not interested in Theology beyond what it can teach me about the use of stories in religion. Humanity is obsessed with stories and the publishers, film companies and music industries are well aware of it. Also the newspapers, television news and programming and advertisers. They depend on it to keep us dissatisfied and to keep on keeping the economy tipping over - we ARE living in a brave new world my friends and God has been replaced by Greed, Christ by Capitalism. God and Jesus - they just use those spiritual sounding words because they know that the archetypes set down in the stories on which they are based can be used to control people. Sure, everyone wants to live a good life. Many people who are trapped in the ego unconsciously are of COURSE going to go astray in their mind. they are unaware of a large portion of their being. They think that attaching some spiritual doctrine to their habits or some spiritual sounding concepts to their identity is going to bring them the truth. Too bad guys - it's not. There are many who live through religion without forging their sense of identity around it, who live ego-less and gain great benefit from the rituals and practices of religion. May these people grow in number I say and realise they are part of only one religion called mankin. May anything which prevents them from seeing the whole and realising that they are life and a part of the whole be dissipated is what I say. But hey, where would we be without conflict to keep everything in balance?
Everyone wants to be giving and to be centered on wholeness. There are great principles in the Bible which would be accessible to everyone if they weren't changed so much to meet 14th-16th century political ideals. You know where Noah's ark came from? It was written pretty much word for word the same in the epic Gilgamesh (which is said to be the earliest written text) it's just the names were changed. But the bible version was written I think beFORE Gilgamesh was Archeologised from the sands of Mesatopania (sp?). If this is the case (and who knows, frankly) then it means that either the story was passed by word of mouth from the middle east, or the story naturally emerged through someone's hand as a strong archetypal myth. It's clear that there have been several chaotic geological upheavals in the history of our planet, many while our ancestors were living on it. This was merely an example that there is always more to a story that what we think (are told, or conditioned). There's nothing wrong with that. There are origins to everything - most of which are lost in time, filtered by their most contemporary incarnations. All I know is times are changing fast. People are looking for answers after not finding them in the places they were told. Above all it is the symbols which are significant because this, as Jung introduced to us, is the language of the unconscious. The unconscious equals at least half of every human and stores all our dreams, thoughts, anxieties, fantasies, knowledge and memories - many of them inherited from our ancestors, from the very first human incarnations and (some conject as an eastern concept now very popular in the west) our past lives. There are things which will ring true with us when we won't even know why and that is often because it is internally confirmed by our unconscious. Stories often contain these symbols and it may not be possible to decode them entirely with our conscious mind.

Archetypal figures in Harry Potter
HP It also subscribes to Jungian archetypes in all the characters serving a 'Wise old man' figure (Dumbledore) a 'light father' figure (Sirius, mr weasley) 'dark father' figure (lucius) 'dark alter ego' (draco), 'light alter ego' (ron) 'temptress' (cho) [cho also represents the comedy aspect in the original sense of the archetype comedy is a sequence of miss-matches before the hero / other characters are united with their correct companions] 'anima' (ginny) and of course the 'monster' (no prizes) among probably more which may be listed.
You can apply these elements to any story ever written (including the Jesus story in fact - if you remember that he probably was married also to a figure named 'mary magdaline [except i forgot how to spell her] she aparrently also comtributed to the gospels - it was only 4 of about 40 which were written which made it into the bible. manywere buried or hidden presumably to prevent their demise) Simpler figurative parables and contemporary ego-stories - any semi-complex classical or contemporary narratives will have thinned-down or no versions of these archetypes. classic examples of a strong application of said archetypes are most shakespeare and the comedies of oscar wilde.

I have a few other issues with Harry Potter in that is is also a sensationalist ego-gratification story AS WELL which is how it manages to succeed so excessively in today's collective (developed western/eastern capitalist etc world) psyche in combination with the symbolic elements. It's because it appeals to the ego as well as symbols of the unconscious. The concept of a magic school where the powerful and mystical arts are honed by the young is not a new one! This is obvious of course. Magic has been around for a long time in many guises, though my knowledge of this history is pretty slim. You may be familiar with the Story of "A Wizard of Earthsea" by Ursula le Guin. If not, read it. It's far more potent than any of the Harry Potter books which on a level of wholeness pale in comparison. Without offering any spoilers, the story is about a young man in a fantasy land who is gifted with mage-like abilities. He slowly develops but is arrogant and impatient - he learns a lesson from his youth which creates a dark enemy he has to overcome. Due to his lack of wisdom and his youthful mistakes he must live with the grave misuse of his power and learn real responsibility. as he matures and becomes a master by facing the darkness within himself. The story has a lot of exciting elemental magic in it, not just a few pranks like in Harry Potter, and moreover, there is a potent message of what price to pay for arousing dark power. In Harry Potter there is no such depth, it really is dualistic - There's nothing wring with that, it's an important factor in the symbolic nature of farie tales. The beef that I have with the story is the level on which the lack of responsibility is emphasised. There are lots of cool little tricks and the magic is mostly very simple. This is of course important for a kids story, a sensationalist exposition of basic wish-fulfillment on a physical level. Most of the magic taking place has little effect on any other level but the physical. Moreover there is little development of the characters beyond what they are capable of in terms of superficial magic. In addition, there is little mention of equivalent trade, an alchemical term - that which must be equated for an unnatural physical change in the environment. More simply, the responsibility an individual must take for the change made to their natural environment. There is no real system of respect for this within the story, it is very insular and contrived. On a related note there is little or no mention of 'real' factual magic which is still in use today like the power of the mind and body when trained and focused, nor the healing power of plants or minerals, the significance of the cosmos in relation to astrology or astronomy (the latter being something which cannot be negated really)

But then, it is a story. These are the main ways it differs from a stronger archetype like the Jesus myth.

ANyway I think I've written enough. If i write any more i'm going to have to open books and copy quotes and it'll turn into a thesis. I wrote this in one sitting with no reference by the way so you'll forgive the sloppy punctuation and disorganised structure and lack of detail and such.

The reason I wrote this is because I was reading recently a lot of books on storytelling and psychology, and I've always been interested in comparative religion (in terms of how they iner-relate and are all actually the same anyway so what's the fuss all about) I'm interested in the infatuation with Harry Potter and noticed independently the parallels with the Christ story. This isn't hard really - it's a strong story and there are so many stories written by christians that the myth of jesus and indeed the related stories pre-dating it will come through in them. It is in fact pretty difficult to write any story withOUT certain archetypes which will successfully fulfill the balance required in the human psyche from the outcome and the combination of figurative elements.

As a footnote, as I come accross all these websites citing Harry Potter as pro-satan-devil-worship-evil or whatnot (which frankly are so laughable I can't even be bothered to read), I find it strange that they don't notice that it has all the same elements as the Christ story. It wouldn't matter even if it WEREN'T BASED on the Christ story because symbolically, the elements to the events are so strongly ancient and symbolic. What's even funnier, but kind of annoying is the actual satanists adopting Harry Potter as a kind of prophet or whatnot. Idiots! Well they're idiots anyway if they are satanists. What a joke! I can't believe Christians take it so seriously either. No wonder they are always fighting some war or other. It's just an excuse. The separation has already been made - There is no difference between God and "satan" because neither exist seperately and I wouldn't call them those names anyway because by naming things we separate them from each other and ourselves, it's the nature and paradox of rational thought. That's why I trust psychology over religion, (Knowledge of self above knowledge from someone else) though they are both heavy on the mind and the mind cannot be engaged in seeking the truth. The mind CAN however be used as a tool to remove the stuff restricting us access to what is always there, the infinite or whatever you want to call it.
There is only one everything.

Chai echai@email.com

Thanks Bryan, no offense taken. I understood the s...

2007-12-13T10:37:17.692-06:00

Thanks Bryan, no offense taken. I understood the spirit of your comments. Thanks for reading too!

I'm glad you didn't take offense to my comments, I...

2007-12-11T10:01:26.291-06:00

I'm glad you didn't take offense to my comments, I tried not to sound accusatory or anything like that. As far as Salvation, I must concede that it is often interpreted differently varying on who is doing the interpreting... I suppose the way I've always understood it, logically, is that if salvation were assured by nothing more than being saved, then everyone in the entire world would be able to be saved. Given the portent of revelation, prophecy predicts however that there will be a resistance who will rise to Satan's side during the last conflicts. It also presupposes that there will be those who were saved, whose hearts are still tainted. I must apologize at such a point if my comment seemed harsh. I was it seems doing the very thing I was cautioning you not to do. I beg your pardon.

Let's say I believe that once a person is saved, that salvation cannot be "erased", but I do believe that the "joy" of salvation can diminish. I do believe that once you are saved, you cannot decide to continue a life of sin indefinitely, counting on that salvation to cover the cost of every sin you commit there-after. However, i will admit that I do not know whether or not my interpretation is the correct one, but it just seems to me that it makes sense. I believe sin still leaves a mark even after we're saved, and I believe that one still needs forgiveness for sins that are committed after being saved. Otherwise, Christ would not have cautioned us to be watchful for his return. If we didn't need to worry about the condition of our souls, we would not have to be vigilant.

Again, I feel that perhaps I appeared too harsh in my responses, and I commend you for your patient and open-minded response to them.

And by the way, I must say, (something I should have said before ) that the fact that you are unabashed at professing your faith in Christ and your willingness to witness to others so publicly, is a refreshing thing. It takes courage in our age.

Hi Bryan, thanks for the comments, they've made me...

2007-12-11T09:05:21.103-06:00

Hi Bryan, thanks for the comments, they've made me reflect. I was being intentionally subtle here, because although I'm a Christian, I try not to blog overtly about doctrine. But it's difficult to be subtle and clear at the same time.

The issue of security of salvation is a pivotal one, where do you stand? I am in favor of the teaching that once a person is saved, they are saved forever.

Forgive me... but I feel I must also clarify one m...

2007-12-11T04:05:53.497-06:00

Forgive me... but I feel I must also clarify one more thing... You say towards the end of your blog, that "Forgiveness is free, and permanent" I feel it should be clarified that according to the Bible, "Salvation" is quite a different thing, and is not permanent. It is unwise to teach that once you have accepted Christ and have been essentially 'saved', that you have no need of forgiveness anymore. You are correct, all of us sin, all have fallen short, but I also believe, a belief supported by the scriptures themselves, that the condition of one's soul does not remain clean forever with a single prayer. Forgive me if I misunderstood your blog, as a fellow Christian I was just making sure that you are careful with what you teach, lest you lead someone astray. Faith be with you, and God Bless.

well... I suppose you could rationalize many paral...

2007-12-11T03:44:00.879-06:00

well... I suppose you could rationalize many parallels between a book revolving around the conflict between good and evil and the Bible. However, the flaw in the theory that Rowling intended this is evident, in that Harry did not actually die when struck with the killing curse at the end, Voldemort only managed to destroy the part of his soul which resided within Harry. If you remember many times in the books, even Dumbledore himself reminded Harry that there was no power to resurrect the dead (In the context of the world of Harry Potter)
So though Harry "Sacrificed himself", not every self-sacrifice can be directly linked to christ's sacrifice. Let's not also forget that Harry was not one part of a triune godhead, he was not possessed of a shred of divinity, nor was this ever implied. He didn't sacrifice himself to wash anyone's sin away. Voldemort could not have been even remotely linked ( it would be a stretch ) with the devil biblically speaking, because the Devil ( according to the Bible ) is prohibited from taking lives, or otherwise affecting the physical realm unless permitted to do so by God himself, and as we who read these books know, Voldemort acted of his own free will and did as he pleased, which included many murders by his own hand.

Please don't misunderstand... I'm not purporting that there is anything inherently wrong with drawing these types of conclusions, or finding and/or assigning our own meanings to what we read. I just felt the need to clarify a few points just in case someone who doesn't understand the Bible may be misled. I encourage people to examine the Bible for themselves rather than allow someone to explain it to them. ( No direct offense to the originator of this post )

Harry Potter is a work of fiction, no more... no less. I sincerely doubt, ( though it is not impossible ) that it contains or is meant to illustrate a religious or spiritual message. But then, that's just my own opinion, and what do I know? ;)