Comments on Pensieve: Tragedy at Toncontin

hmmm, yes I'd say you definitely are, anon, especi...

2008-08-09T20:31:45.118-06:00

hmmm, yes I'd say you definitely are, anon, especially after reading the details of the Sao Paolo crash, which was fatal.

I think there is something fundamentally wrong or ...

2008-08-09T18:13:15.262-06:00

I think there is something fundamentally wrong or troubling with the Airbus 320 - at least when it comes to the (like in the words of 757-Pilot) "overly automated systems."

There have been a string of accidents involving Airbus 320 (as well as Airbus 340) aircraft:

1994-WAW, Poland: A Lufthansa A320 hydroplaned after landing, killing the 1st officer and one passenger.

2006-YYZ, Canada: An Air France A340 touches down late in a rainstorm and skids - all survive, but the plane burns up.

2007-SAO, Brazil: An Airbus 320 skids upon landing on a wet runway and overshoots the runway, killing all on board.

2008-TGU, Honduras: Yet another A320 skids in the rain.

And thene there were two A320s from United that had problems with locked brakes.

What are your thoughts? Do you think I might be onto something?

Hi anon, the airport is open again, you should be ...

2008-07-11T22:11:35.209-06:00

Hi anon, the airport is open again, you should be fine, just relax, and breathe deeply as you go in.

Just rec'd info that I will be landing in TGU next...

2008-07-11T14:37:16.073-06:00

Just rec'd info that I will be landing in TGU next week. yes! that soon. Is it too soon? Is the airport up and running. Curious

The road to Choluteca is very unsafe, but with a b...

2008-06-10T08:16:10.143-06:00

The road to Choluteca is very unsafe, but with a bit of money funneled into it, could create a lot more commerce in that direction. An airport would be a tremendous boon to this otherwise poor and arid place.

Hi...I am an airline pilot for one of the "legacy"...

2008-06-10T03:13:28.262-06:00

Hi...I am an airline pilot for one of the "legacy" carriers in the US. I have flown both the A-320 and the B-757.

I also have flown into TGU for the last twenty years as both pilot and passenger (my wife is from Choluteca).

Regarding the overrun of the A320, there are many things that can go wrong at TGU, particulary when the weather is marginal. The morning of the crash, I looked up the METAR @ TGU and was surprised to see that the visibility was reported as one mile. Visibility is normally the only controlling factor when a pilot decides whether to commence an approach. Some airlines place more restrictive guidlines when operating into a high-risk airport such as TGU; such as a minimum ceiling, etc.

My experience with the A-320 is that it can be too automated for it's own good under certain conditions. There is a feature in the programming of the approach speed that will place a significant addition to the otherwise normal Vref (landing) speed if there is a tailwind or gusty conditions present. This can lead to a much higher groundspeed during the approach, and with an airplane as clean as the A320, the tendency is to float quite a bit during the flare. This is very likely what occurred but we won't know until the FDR data is released.

I tend to agree with the idea of limiting TGU to certain types of aircraft. Personally, I am much more comfortable traveling there on the 737 because of it's size and maneuverability.

A new system of commuter flights feeding into and out of TGU would be a welcome change for me...

As a side note; many people traveling to TGU continue south by road to Choluteca. There is an un-used airport in Choluteca that could be converted into a commercial airport and even has the potential to become an alternative intn'l airport because of the favorable terrain.

Hmmm, having people fly a local airline might boos...

2008-06-09T18:46:13.735-06:00

Hmmm, having people fly a local airline might boost the economy. But, yes, the waste of a nice terminal is a terrible thing. I was, for once, proud of it, the earlier one had become decrepit and embarrassing.

Have flown into TGU nearly 60 times in the last 20...

2008-06-09T12:15:26.581-06:00

Have flown into TGU nearly 60 times in the last 20 years. The airport has always been dangerous. This has long been known. As a matter of fact, it seems much less dangerous over the last few years. Seems that we don't even use all the runway before the pilot turns to taxi into terminal. Why suddenly, immediately shut down access to Tegucigalpa after one tragic accident? Also, they have spent a tremendous amount of money improving the terminal. How can that be abandoned to domestic travel only. Finally, do whatever is necessary to extend the runway. Do whatever is necessary to build up the drop off - claim the property, reroute traffic, move the people, bring in dirt and extend the runway. This is not a bing engineering and construction problem. Maybe a money issue, but this relates to the economic health of the country.

If you're still reading this post, Bob, I have fel...

2008-06-07T20:37:11.613-06:00

If you're still reading this post, Bob, I have felt uneasy more than once landing at La Guardia, NY for some of the same reasons. Am I over reacting?

kman

Hello, I’m an occasional reader of your blog and w...

2008-06-07T18:19:10.118-06:00

Hello, I’m an occasional reader of your blog and wanted to share some of my thoughts on your post and comments. My cousin, AlejandraS, was one of the stewardesses on the flight and suffered a broken leg, broken cheekbone, and other injuries. She is stable and recuperating in a hospital in Teguz.
Aircraft with beta or thrust reversers can “stop on a dime”, relatively speaking, even when not hitting the numbers on touchdown. The wet conditions obviously played a big role in the landing rollout and the jet running out of pavement. Did Toncontin ever upgrade from VOR/DME to a precision approach? I’ll definitely look forward to the accident report.
I second pilot Bob’s observation that passengers need to shut their trap about making comments of the jet coming in “high and fast”, especially if they have no aviation training or background. I’ve chuckled when I’ve encountered “cabin pilots” who talk about coming in “way to high and fast” on the approach with no reference to on speed/on glideslope indicators. “Are you a pilot?” I’ve asked and you can guess the answer. Then again, they might have stayed at a Holiday Inn the night before! For the record, I have formal aviation training in the relatively recent past.
I’ll take exception to Bob’s comment about “Why he attempted the second approach and landing is puzzling.” It is not uncommon for aircrews to execute a missed approach, or request a low approach, to get a feel for the landing conditions, especially with a tailwind in a short runway and tricky runway environment. The Wx conditions were above minimums and the tailwind was within envelope so I don’t find it “puzzling” that they brought the jet around for a second try.
I hope that this unfortunate event finally forces the hand of the government to make a decision on a new/alternate airport for Teguz. My personal opinion is that Palmerola/Soto Cano AB should have been converted to accommodate civilian traffic a long, long time ago. The area has plenty of room for growth and with proper planning and layouts the military sensitive operations can be properly protected.

Hi Bob, it's great to hear a pilot's perspective. ...

2008-06-06T08:00:16.136-06:00

Hi Bob, it's great to hear a pilot's perspective. I agree that San Pedro should be "the" Honduras airport, with smaller "shuttle" flights to the more dangerous Tegucigalpa airport.

It's a hassle for the passenger, but in the end, local airlines will profit from it, and hopefully, modernize.

"According to passengers, he was coming in too fas...

2008-06-06T07:08:15.835-06:00

"According to passengers, he was coming in too fast." Oh, I love people who make claims like this. "We were coming in too fast." Really? Were they able to see the airspeed indicator? Passengers who aren't rated pilots should just shut up about things they do not know. Period.

Secondly, although the tower "gives permission" to land, that means nothing in and of itself. The pilot is still responsible for putting his plane onto the runway in a way that will allow him to stop before running off the end. This means putting the plane down in *precisely* the correct spot at *precisely* the correct airspeed. Both of those things have to be correct.

Anything *else* is cause for what we call a "go-around." Captain D'Antony availed himself of that option once. Why he attempted the second approach and landing is puzzling. He obviously thought he could do it. Just as obviously it was a mistake, and he paid with his life (and the lives of four others).

But Aaron, let's not call this a disaster. Yes, it was a bad accident and yes, five people died. And yes, it could have been a lot worse. But it wasn't.

With a runway length of 2,000 meters, Toncontin has always been a hazardous airport, set down in a "bowl" such as it is. There is simply no room for error. Everything has to be perfect for the landing of a big airplane to be successful. Quite obviously, this was not the case with TACA.

Moving airline operations to Soto Cano, as Mel Zel wants to do is not going to be easy. For one thing, there are *no* facilities there (customs, ticket counters, baggage facilities, etc.). These things must be built. Plus, the U.S. military has some "sensitive" things going on there, and they will surely raise HUGE objections until security can be assured. Alternatively, the U.S. Air Force can just say "Adios!" to Mel like we did in Puerto Rico, and wouldn't *that* be nice for the local economy!

Bottom line: There is no "quick and easy" solution to Toncontin. Airlines will continue to use it for as long as feasible. Pilots will again be cautioned to be EXTRA careful, and to go-around at the slightest sign that things are not perfect.

When an airplane runs off the end of a runway, it's never the airport's fault.

But really, La Ceiba or SPS should be *the* Honduras International Airport. Teguc is a shithole.

Hey people, sorry I took so long to respond, I don...

2008-06-03T21:05:50.914-06:00

Hey people, sorry I took so long to respond, I don't have a computer at home right now.

Definitely the pilot could have displayed better judgement. But isn't it the tower that gives permission to land?

Moving an airport is a big deal, and must be planned in the long term. Planes won't be getting any smaller any time soon. Before long, Toncontin will be considered inadequate anyway for these future planes.

The airport in Caracas, a city nestled among hills, like Tegucigalpa, is an hour away on the coast. Moving the airport to Comayagua, or perhaps to a nearer place like Amarateca (20 minutes away) makes sense in the long run.

first, when the pilot lands halfway down the runwa...

2008-06-03T07:02:35.601-06:00

first, when the pilot lands halfway down the runway it is a pilot's error. nothing callous about calling it what it was. the airport can handle planes like the airbus and boeing 737 with no problem.
second, there is room to extend the airport either by building a ramp on the north side or leveling the hills on the south side and yes, this would cost money both in the actual extension and to indemnify property owners.
third, there is the project for a new airport in la laguna del pedregal which is a sound project but it turns out that as soon as the project was discussed a bunch of military officers, politicians and other crooks bought the land at 90 lempiras and then wanted 2,000 lempiras per vara for it!!
fourth, having the airport in comayagua is not the best option because it will have a terrible economic on tegucigalpa but as usual, this president acts without a long-term view but who cares right? this guy has been the worse president in the country's history.

2 accidents seem like more than enough.

2008-06-03T01:55:01.500-06:00

2 accidents seem like more than enough.

hey I used to live in TGU until a year ago,,, just...

2008-05-31T19:43:17.201-06:00

hey I used to live in TGU until a year ago,,, just saw and Im disgusted by how people blame the accident on the airport.
First of all the pilots were cautioned about landing in a wet runway with a tailwind,,, and second nobody is forcing them to land there after their missed approach, any pilot will tell anyone who doesnt know about flying that landing half-way down the wet runway with a tailwind is a bad practice,,, Daily flights have been operating daily, so how do people explain why not more than 2 accidents of this nature have happened?